Josh and Jason Carman of Popdarts: How Hard Work, Prototyping, and Strict Legal Protection Scaled a Backyard Game Into an Empire

As a part of our series called “Making Something From Nothing”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Josh and Jason Carman.

Josh Carman Co-Founder, CEO at Popdarts:

Josh is focused on big picture growth strategies, product line expansion, supply chain management and broad marketing planning. Josh was recently featured on Today Show, ESPN, SportsCenter, Sports Illustrated, and several others.

Jason Carman Co-Founder, COO at Popdarts:

Jason is highly focused on customer experience, product line expansion, and public relations. He was recently featured on ESPN, SportsCenter, Sports Illustrated, and several others.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dive in, our readers would love to learn a bit more about you. Can you tell us a bit about your “childhood backstory”?

We are Josh and Jason Carman, brothers and founders of Popdarts. We grew up in Pennsylvania, graduated college, and went on to establish our careers in finance and software. We are Christ-followers who both enjoy the outdoors, sports, travel, food, and spending time with family and friends. From a young age, we have been active in sports and seemed to turn everything into a fun and competitive game. Flash forward a few years to 2020 and nothing has changed! When COVID-19 hit and many of us adjusted to the life of quarantine, Josh did what he has always done and created fun games out of nothing. That is how Popdarts originated. After coming up with an initial prototype & establishing the gameplay, we set off on this journey with help from friends and family to make Popdarts what it is today.

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?

“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” — Thomas Edison

This quote rings true for us in our first year of business as it does for most successful entrepreneurs. It’s almost a blissful ignorance of the word failure. With the many roadblocks and obstacles that arise, we try to take them all in stride and learn from them. It doesn’t mean that those lessons aren’t costly, but the more costly the mistake, the more ingrained the lesson.

Is there a particular book, podcast, or film that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?

I don’t know if there is one film, podcast, or book; but there are many wise people that we try to emulate and learn from. If we had to mention one it would be Shoe Dog. We appreciated how Phil Knight, the founder of Nike, lets you in on the highs and lows of starting a business and turning it into an empire.

Ok super. Let’s now shift to the main part of our discussion. There is no shortage of good ideas out there. Many people have good ideas all the time. But people seem to struggle in taking a good idea and translating it into an actual business. Can you share a few ideas from your experience about how to overcome this challenge?

Yes, you are right, ideas are a dime a dozen. Execution is EVERYTHING! Most people fail to make their idea a reality due to a lack of hard work, perseverance, and a can-do attitude.

We have folders filled with ideas of products, games, or concepts. You could sort that folder of ideas ranging from products that have already been established by others, games that didn’t have mass appeal or concepts that may take a little longer to develop. We started off running with Popdarts because of the obvious mass appeal and scalability.

Once you find the idea that seems most promising, that is when the real challenge actually begins. The 5 main steps to bringing this or any product to market could be summarized as follows: research the market, prove the concept, find a trusted factory to produce the product, build the brand, and execute a sound marketing plan. While these steps are much easier said than done, they can’t be overlooked.

Often when people think of a new idea, they dismiss it saying someone else must have thought of it before. How would you recommend that someone go about researching whether or not their idea has already been created?

We would recommend scouring the internet first through platforms like Amazon, Walmart, Google, etc. If you find that nobody has your idea, and the excitement starts to build, shift your research toward a more legal route by searching through Google patents, trademarks, and copyrights. This part is extremely important. Not only is it important to respect the idea of another person that has taken the time to publish it, but it’s also important because starting a business or launching a product is no easy task. The amount of work that goes into engineering, sourcing, developing, marketing, building social accounts, forming an LLC, and everything else it takes to create a successful product; it’s not worth your time and energy to pour into a business that could be taken away from you with a single letter from the true creator’s legal team. We are in fact going through this right now as our legal team is collecting evidence from over 1,000 counterfeiters of our product, freezing assets, taking settlements, and going to court when needed. We would not like to be on the receiving end of that.

For the benefit of our readers, can you outline the steps one has to go through, from when they think of the idea, until it finally lands in a customer’s hands? In particular, we’d love to hear about how to file a patent, how to source a good manufacturer, and how to find a retailer to distribute it.

There are several things that need to be done before you are able to get your product into the hands of your customer. Some of the main steps include:

Market Research: As we previously stated, you need to scour the internet for similar products. If it doesn’t exist, you are in luck. If it does, that doesn’t mean “game over”. The question then becomes, “Can you improve it?”.

Prove the Concept: For this, you will need at least 100 unbiased people (a diverse demographic) to be a sample of the market. Trust me, they will tell you everything that is wrong with your product. Don’t be hurt. Use it and learn from it.

Once the concept is proven, PROTECT IT! For us, this meant trademarks, copyrights and patents. We have invested a fair amount into registering trademarks (both in the US and globally), copyrighting marketing materials, and applying for a patent for the product itself (both for utility and design). While you do not want to go about doing this on your own, an expensive lawyer is not always needed. Do your research, and you’ll find that submitting a trademark by yourself isn’t terribly hard; and a good patent agent could be all you need to submit the proper applications for your patents.

Find a Trusted Factory: Be careful with Alibaba. You can get burned (speaking from experience). You are much better off finding a factory through word of mouth or connections. While this may take more time, it could save your business a lot of money.

Build Your Brand: Understand your mission and portray that to your audience. If you have a product or service that the people want/need and your audience resonates with your message, they will buy into the brand more so than even your product.

Regarding retailers and distribution…In this day and age (post Covid), we believe that DTC (Direct to Consumer) is the best way to launch your product. With digital marketing and organic social media growth, you can be well on your way to a successful launch. To date, our philosophy on brick-and-mortar retail has been “if we build it, they will come” If they do, great. We’ll be in the driver seat. If they don’t, keep building!

What are your “5 Things I Wish Someone Told Me When I First Started Leading My Company” and why?

Can we change this question to, “What are the 5,000 things I wish someone told me?” (Haha).

If we have to pick 5 then I will keep this answer high level.

Number One: Even if something seems like a simple product or idea, do not underestimate the amount of time it will take to develop, launch, and grow it into a real, sustainable business. We can’t even count the number of 20+ hour days that we worked in order to get this idea off the ground. Then, once that hard work paid off and we started gaining some traction, those long days will only continue to increase. If you don’t genuinely believe in what you are doing, then it will be very easy to quit, or stop pushing as hard to move forward. The moment you stop pushing, you need to understand that is the moment your competition will outperform you and run you out of your own idea.

Number Two: If you believe you have a great idea, take the time to protect it by filing trademark/copyright applications. Find a good patent agent to help you with the most necessary patents, whether that is a utility or design (or both) will depend on your idea. Along with this, you need to understand that these forms of protection take time to process. You need to be prepared to go to battle defending your product and the integrity of your brand against copycats prior to having the ability to take legal action. This requires you to get creative figuring out how to report and remove infringing sellers in ways that actually work. Simply hitting a report button on Facebook, Google, or Amazon will not get you anywhere except feeling frustrated and helpless. Do your research, contact the actual domains, platforms, and payments services that the infringing sellers are using and report them using full forms by providing proof of ownership and future litigation that will come against these platforms. These one-off infringing sellers are like whack-a-mole, you take down one and three more pop up. You need to go to the source.

Number Three: Take the time to find some industry allies and never shy away from taking a meeting just because you think you don’t have the time. Early on we took on the philosophy of never turning down a meeting and this has been the single most helpful mindset that has allowed us to grow our business. We view each conversation as an opportunity to learn and to help. We can’t emphasize enough how helpful it is to come out of a conversation with a new contact, strategy, thought process, or feeling encouraged that someone else is riding the same struggle bus. You won’t receive any of that without looking out for others and genuinely offering your help first. Always be a reliable source of valuable information and sound encouragement to the people around you. Not only in business, but in life as well.

Number Four: Do as much research as possible to find a trustworthy manufacturer through the means of a personal recommendation. If you don’t know where to start, you can start by emailing owners of similar small businesses and asking to have a conversation. They may be willing to make an introduction to their own supplier. Avoid Alibaba at all costs and take your time with this step. We lost many thousands of dollars and units of inventory due to an untrustworthy supplier. Bear in mind that this was after we had already received over 10,000 units of inventory. Just because a supplier relationship starts off strong in the beginning does not mean they will be trustworthy when much larger inventory purchases are made.

Number Five: Don’t fall into the trap of feeling like you need to secure a large loan or investors to get started. We are huge proponents of not taking on any debt when building your company. We started Popdarts with less than $10,000 that we invested from our own savings and ever since then we have funded every part of our business through the cash flow that our initial investment had generated. We strongly believe (if at all possible) that this is the single best way to start a business. If we had taken on investors or even had a large sum of money to put toward marketing or other avenues, then we would not have been forced to come up with all the other free and creative alternative ideas that have led to our continued success. Our last piece of free advice on this topic is that when you start a business, you need to accept the fact that as you grow you will make dozens of mistakes. Those mistakes fuel determination that drives successful outcomes. Never entertain the time it takes to get down on yourself. Always heed the wisdom you can glean from negative comments and discouraging people. Never stop listening to your customer, growing your business, and providing a better experience for everyone your business comes in contact with.

Let’s imagine that a reader reading this interview has an idea for a product that they would like to invent. What are the first few steps that you would recommend that they take?

SEE QUESTION 6 ABOVE.

There are many invention development consultants. Would you recommend that a person with a new idea hire such a consultant, or should they try to strike out on their own?

Advice is extremely valuable; but not all advice is worth it. In our experience, we found that our fellow inventors/entrepreneurs were extremely kind and willing to share their success stories, as well as their missteps. Before going down the path to hire a consultant, take the time to reach out to a business a few steps ahead of you. You might be surprised to see their willingness to help.

What are your thoughts about bootstrapping vs looking for venture capital? What is the best way to decide if you should do either one?

Simple answer. Bootstrap until you absolutely cannot. The minute you owe someone money, it changes the dynamics of how you grow your business. It’s not always bad, and sometimes it is absolutely necessary; but in our opinion, avoid it as long as you can.

Ok. We are nearly done. Here are our final questions. How have you used your success to make the world a better place? You are an inspiration to a great many people. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger.

In the past several years, I think we have all noticed the huge increase of time that each of us spend either scrolling on our devices or sitting in front of the TV. This is going to only increase as societies get introduced to the Metaverse. Having kids of our own who are growing up in this world filled with phones, video games, and all things virtual reality, made us realize how much we wanted them to learn to be creative, practice and develop physical skills, and never back down from a little healthy competition! Our mission with Popdarts is to combat this excessive screen time by providing people with a game that is not just fun and competitive, but something that brings friends and family of all ages together in a physical, relational way. We hear from our customers often about how they can finally get their kids to stop playing video games (even if only for a few minutes) and actually enjoy playing Popdarts with the family. These are the stories that drive us to keep going and we love it!

We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US, with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them.

Hands down, Mark Cuban. We have probably consumed 100% of everything Mark has said on Youtube, Podcasts, books, etc. His down to earth business principles have played a huge part in getting us to the place that we are today. One of his quotes that we always have ringing in the back of our minds is, “sales cures all”. If we are ever questioning what to do next, we put our heads down and find a way to accumulate more sales in the most cost effective way possible. This will generate the cash flow we need to fund inventory and explore new ways to grow our business and take us to the next level. Thanks, Mark.

Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this.